[MyPerfectPigeon]

Originally Posted by Lawtan

Jediism is a bit odd, admittedly...but haven't observed it that much, so I don't know much about it.

The Hermetic Order and the like are interesting, as is Alchemy and its derivatives. The form and changes in Ancient Egyptian mythology, Shinto, and Ojibwe beliefs are interesting. I haven't gotten far into the Ancient Inca mythos, though how their strict gender-caste formation came about is a good model for why so many societies are set up like that (in that strict gender roles are due to trying to establish and justify a central inheritance system of power across disjointed matrilineal and patrilineal tribe lineages).

yeah, Scientology is exactly like that.
also, absurdism sounds confusing and super cool!! I wish I was smart enough to understand it better :)
Jediism is odd, but that's why I think it's cool :D

That's true with what you say about incas, but I do prefer loose gender roles. Egyptian Mythos also interest me greatly, especially the architecture that arrived from it.

[MyPerfectPigeon]

Originally Posted by Suzerain of Sheol

I do remember hearing about the findings on this several years ago, I'm not entirely sure there's enough available data (from what I've seen) to be able to say on anything definitive on the matter.

Just wondering... how do I quote multiple people in the post?

I'm glad you also agree in multiple states of self-awareness. although there isn't much evidence for cetaceans as a whole to be sentience, there is strong evidence of Orcas and bottlenose dolphins as sentient creatures with strong self-awareness. They even have multiple languages and speak differently with each other depending on gender and age. I think it's fascinating.
I also agree that the likelihood of alien visitation is slim to none. However, as science tells, I also agree it's almost guaranteed that there is intelligent life elsewhere. I love pondering about what other lifeforms would be like. It's definitely a worth wondering what state of self-awareness they will have :)

The only thing I wonder with eliminating biological mortality is, what about wanting to have a family? Do you think that biological desire will be eliminated as well? I'd love to hear what you think artificial beings would be like if it is humans that are programming them.

It's interesting you mention subconscious. Did you know that it has been disproven that a subconscious exists and that what we are meant to identify as subconscious is just instinctual behavior? I thought that was interesting.

Thank you for answering my question! I think it is really interesting to draw parallels between some mental illnesses in humans and animals in terms of behavior.

although you said you don't read much about modern religions, I'd honestly love to hear your opinions on Scientology just to see if it has more insight than the typical views of it.

You're welcome. I hope my responses aren't too off-putting. As you may be able to imagine, I'm quite used to these ideas being met with hostility, so I appreciate you taking them in the spirit they're meant.

No, they aren't off-putting at all! You were very polite and courteous about your beliefs and I really appreciate that :)

[MyPerfectPigeon]

Originally Posted by Gallagher

I think anyone truly disinterested is unlikely to post in this thread, let alone answer your questions.[/SIZE][/COLOR][/B]

Sorry for only quoting the last bit, but it's a long response (I appreciate it!)

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. I always thought it was a little odd how some people that don't agree morally with their religion use it to correct people, but to each their own.

I don't have any problems with the door-to-door. all of the Jehovah's Witnesses that have visited me have been very friendly and willing to answer any questions I've had. although most just offered me a pamphlet, which wasn't a bother at all. In fact, they were very interesting to read :)
I agree that people should follow what they wish. With your last question, you're interested in learning about religions, correct? Do you mind if I ask you your opinions on a couple of the "odder" ones?

[Gallagher]

Oh yeah, I'm interested in learning about them, Pigeon. Or learning viewpoints like Suze's over there, lol.

What odder ones do you have in mind?

[MyPerfectPigeon]

Originally Posted by Salone

As mentioned by Lawtan, the Esoteric Order of Dagon is the entirely fictional cult from Lovecraft's works, although they have a little piece on how it overthrew Christianity in a town in the story "Shadow Over Innsmouth" that is a nice little read.

I would be okay with a religious backing of science. So long as I don't have to give up my hedonistic lifestyle and dubious morality on various matters.

And sadly, Omnianism is also a fictional religion set in the Discworld universe, first being detailed in the book Small Gods. A quick run through on the religion can be found below, and I cannot recommend the book enough.

Omnianism centers around the worship and praise of the great and terrible god Om, who decrees that he created the world and everything in it and that he is the only god, contrary to the proof of multiple gods existing in the Discworld and that it was created long before him. Omnianism has regularly scheduled prophets that make pilgrimages into the desert to consult with Om. The religion itself is the state religion of Omnia, and the country is fiercely dedicated and spreads its religion by sword point to its neighbors. Om himself was selfish and indifferent to his believers' wishes and desires, and was quick to anger and to smite people. It is later discovered that most of the prophets never actually spoke to Om, but wrote the commandments of what they thought he would want (you know, what they desired). This lead to commandments against singing (except for praising Om), alcohol, and pretty much anything else that could be a sin, including fruits on holy days and such, and gave vindication for killing those who did not follow the will of Om. Omnianism also has the Quisition, holy agents who torture others 'for the good of Omnianism' and to root out those who would spread lies and falsehoods about Om (the truth actually).

More information below, but spoilers on the actual book are mentioned.

In Small Gods, the followers of Omnianism believe more in the structure of their religion than their actual religion, and the lack of actual belief in Om reduces him in power, to the point that entering the mortal realm leaves him only enough power to take the form of a small tortoise instead of the mighty raging bull he had desired to be. He is discovered by his last true believer, a boy who has fanatical worship of Om. Om is at first hateful and commands plagues and pestilences against those who do not immediately run to his aid ("Your sexual organs to sprout wings and fly away" is a pretty good one). However, the only person who can hear him is the boy, since he is the only believer. To make things worse, the boy is fairly thick and refuses to believe that this tortoise is Om, as Om is all powerful and would never take the form of a tortoise and suspects him of being a demon. In this series gods live off of belief, without it they die, so Om must slowly persuade the boy that he is Om, without letting on to how he became a tortoise or that there are other gods out there. Together they go on a quest to restore Om to his full godhood, and Om slowly begins to learn that people matter, their lives are not a game, and that to have one hundred sheep, you have to be willing to search for one. There's also a neat little scene where he literally beats up the other gods and twists their arms in to telling their followers the same to stop a war that would wipe out all of Omnia, which is nothing more than a board game to them.

Om also appears to his followers, and makes his original last believer his final prophet. He makes commandments and then desires to go off to smite those who would attack his followers, but his prophet refuses and argues him in to establishing a constitutional religion, where Om may not make any commandments that he himself will not follow. Om agrees to this, and in finding peace Omnia ushers in an age of education and tolerance by allowing other religions in to Omnia (Thou shall not subject thy god to market forces!), as well as building a great library. As the series goes on. Omnianism is still highly popular, as they continue to have rabid frothing belief in Om, but go about spreading their belief in somewhat less violent ways, as Om has decreed that his followers develop their own ethics and theology based on his existence. Omnianism has become a much more moderate religion, and instead of Om now being the only god, they now say he is the only god worth worshiping. He also refuses to manifest again, and relies on the uncertainty of his work through people to give them faith in him, as they cannot be sure if he is listening.

Wow, that is so interesting! Thank you so much for giving the information for Omnianism!
I love religions that don't enforce the typical Christian sins except for the not killing and cheating part, just because I'd always feel like a bad person otherwise XD

[MyPerfectPigeon]

Originally Posted by Gallagher

Oh yeah, I'm interested in learning about them, Pigeon. Or learning viewpoints like Suze's over there, lol.

What odder ones do you have in mind?

Hmm, the ones I know about are Scientology, Jediism, and the religion I'm part of, Havism, for starts.

[Lawtan]

What is Havism?

Also, the biological immortality/inability for humanity to escape human nature is a subject I intend to explore in time. (Essentially in response to a fictional question of "why godlike beings would want/need people"...mixed with trans-humanism deconstruction)

[Suzerain of Sheol]

Originally Posted by MyPerfectPigeon

Just wondering... how do I quote multiple people in the post?

Copy their text, and then put

[QUOTE=PERSON'SNAME]BLAHBLAHBLAH[/QUOTE]

around it.

I also agree that the likelihood of alien visitation is slim to none. However, as science tells, I also agree it's almost guaranteed that there is intelligent life elsewhere. I love pondering about what other lifeforms would be like. It's definitely a worth wondering what state of self-awareness they will have :)

Just clarifying that I agree with this, if there was any confusion. I only reject the narcissistic claims of supposed abductees and Area 51 conspiracy theorists. I agree with the conclusions of the Drake Equation. Though Fermi's Paradox is also rather intriguing...

The only thing I wonder with eliminating biological mortality is, what about wanting to have a family? Do you think that biological desire will be eliminated as well? I'd love to hear what you think artificial beings would be like if it is humans that are programming them.

I'd be hesitant to say anything on the subject; it's a hypothetical built off of a hypothetical. I think on this particular issue, I'll agree with Dr. Aubrey de Gray that we should deal with concerns like that once we've actually cured aging and the like.

And as for AI, I frankly have no idea. The instinctual part of me says it's a horrifying prospect, but the rational pessimist is more of the persuasion that if we could create of digital God that utterly transcends us, it would be the greatest thing our species ever accomplished, even if said God's very first action was to exterminate us from the face of the planet. I think it was Sam Harris who had a moral theory on the subject, that the creation of supreme, self-recursive AGI would be the pinnacle of human contribution to the universe.

It's interesting you mention subconscious. Did you know that it has been disproven that a subconscious exists and that what we are meant to identify as subconscious is just instinctual behavior? I thought that was interesting.

Yes, I do recall that. I misspoke. My apologies.

Thank you for answering my question! I think it is really interesting to draw parallels between some mental illnesses in humans and animals in terms of behavior.

There's actually a serious argument to be had over whether my position itself qualifies as mental illness or not. It brings into question the standards that we use to describe a healthy mind, and whether those standards have a basis in nature or in culture (though, then you can question whether or not culture IS an expression of nature...) It's addressed in Thomas Ligotti's The Conspiracy Against the Human Race, which is very accessible as an introduction to philosophical pessimism, if you want to hear someone better educated and more eloquent than myself make the case.

although you said you don't read much about modern religions, I'd honestly love to hear your opinions on Scientology just to see if it has more insight than the typical views of it.

I think Scientology is somewhat fascinating for the fact that we know exactly where it came from and how it evolved, and can track that evolution over time. In terms of understanding the effect religions have on the personal and collective psyche, I think it's a really interesting resource. I'd be curious as to what percentage of the high-ranking members actually believe the tenets of the religion. The cynic in me wants to think it's all about money in the end, but religion can take powerful roots in people, so I wouldn't be that surprised if they really did believe.

[MyPerfectPigeon]

Originally Posted by Lawtan

What is Havism?

Also, the biological immortality/inability for humanity to escape human nature is a subject I intend to explore in time. (Essentially in response to a fictional question of "why godlike beings would want/need people"...mixed with trans-humanism deconstruction)

I find that an interesting topic too! Especially the phrase "human nature." Sometimes it feels like saying human nature is an excuse for not developing as a person or a civilization, while other times it seems some people are very troubled by the idea that they believe they are slaves to the reactive mind. It seems to all depend on perspective, but I'd love to find more perspectives about it!

Havism is a relatively new religion that I'm not so good at explaining. It does promote non-violence, but that isn't required. The religion focuses on the equality of race/gender/sexuality/religion/etc of all humans, being able to understand multiple perspectives, and able to converse with one another and able to express ideals without the typical angry backlash.
It's a religion that encourages its followers to discover their own answers and delve into science to find out their questions as opposed to turning to the religion itself.
The holy text consists of many stories and scenarios with no rightly defined answer and it is meant to stimulate a natural wonder of what is truly right and what is truly wrong when consequences are not defined.
Sort of like Geigy's Ring, which states that if humans could commit an injustice without any consequences or anyone knowing about it, they would be driven to do such things.

The main thing I like about Havism is that it does agree with most of my ideals--that no life is better than all life, human equality, expressing oneself, etc.
There are holidays and such and the religion does take great pride in allowing everyone to have fun haha

[MyPerfectPigeon]

Originally Posted by Suzerain of Sheol

Copy their text, and then put

around it.

Thanks so much! I'll start doing that!!

Just clarifying that I agree with this, if there was any confusion. I only reject the narcissistic claims of supposed abductees and Area 51 conspiracy theorists. I agree with the conclusions of the Drake Equation. Though Fermi's Paradox is also rather intriguing...

Oh, yes I know :) I agree as well, is all I was trying to say. Sorry about that.
I often wondered why the abductions stories exist. Do you believe it is only the result of narcissism and delusion, or mental illness of some kind?
There is that "disease" known as Morgellons. If you haven't heard of it, it only occurs in alien abduction alleged victims. as a disease itself, well, it simply isn't one. However, it has been noted that the alleged sufferers of Morgellons all have similar psychiatric conditions.
In terms of area 51, the reason for that is that weird book someone made (blue planet? something planet?). Have you ever read it? I've been wanting to. Sounds like a trip

And as for AI, I frankly have no idea. The instinctual part of me says it's a horrifying prospect, but the rational pessimist is more of the persuasion that if we could create of digital God that utterly transcends us, it would be the greatest thing our species ever accomplished, even if said God's very first action was to exterminate us from the face of the planet. I think it was Sam Harris who had a moral theory on the subject, that the creation of supreme, self-recursive AGI would be the pinnacle of human contribution to the universe.

Hm... I'm not sure how I'd feel about a transcendent digital god. If, of course, he or she didn't choose to exterminate us, I do wonder what sort of things he or she can change. It's definitely an interesting thing to think about.
I would like to ask why you think a, I will quote, "supreme, self-recursive agi" would be the pinnacle of human contribution?

Yes, I do recall that. I misspoke. My apologies.

No need to apologize! I just thought I'd bring it up :)

There's actually a serious argument to be had over whether my position itself qualifies as mental illness or not. It brings into question the standards that we use to describe a healthy mind, and whether those standards have a basis in nature or in culture (though, then you can question whether or not culture IS an expression of nature...) It's addressed in Thomas Ligotti's The Conspiracy Against the Human Race, which is very accessible as an introduction to philosophical pessimism, if you want to hear someone better educated and more eloquent than myself make the case.

It does seem like culture is an expression in nature. We can see behaviors that mimic culture not only in non-sentient monkeys and apes, but also in cetaceans. I think animal cultures are incredibly intriguing.
In terms of mental illness, I myself think there's a line that is constantly crossed with it.
I believe some conditions do, without a doubt, qualify as a mental illness. For me, anyway, if the alleged mental illness is something that impairs a person to the point of not allowing them to lead a "normal" life (or perform functions normally expected of a human being), I'd consider that a mental illness. However, nowadays just about anything can be a mental illness. I personally believe if there is no interference to live a healthy functional life, then I don't think it should be classified as a mental illness. If thinking differently than the norm is going to be classified as a mental illness, we will have to identify what actually is the normal and if the normal can exist in defined boundaries.
I'll check out! Can it be found on youtube?

I think Scientology is somewhat fascinating for the fact that we know exactly where it came from and how it evolved, and can track that evolution over time. In terms of understanding the effect religions have on the personal and collective psyche, I think it's a really interesting resource. I'd be curious as to what percentage of the high-ranking members actually believe the tenets of the religion. The cynic in me wants to think it's all about money in the end, but religion can take powerful roots in people, so I wouldn't be that surprised if they really did believe.

That's the reason I love to research Scientology. The religion itself did start out predominantly about money. However, it evolved into something quite different. as for the higher ups, I do think that it could be as much as half and half in terms of beliefs. Considering many of the current higher ups have been raised with Scientology. I know in particular that David Miscavige does believe all the teachings of the religion.

[Lawtan]

Originally Posted by MyPerfectPigeon

Thanks so much! I'll start doing that!!
I often wondered why the abductions stories exist. Do you believe it is only the result of narcissism and delusion, or mental illness of some kind?
There is that "disease" known as Morgellons. If you haven't heard of it, it only occurs in alien abduction alleged victims. as a disease itself, well, it simply isn't one. However, it has been noted that the alleged sufferers of Morgellons all have similar psychiatric conditions.


It does seem like culture is an expression in nature. We can see behaviors that mimic culture not only in non-sentient monkeys and apes, but also in cetaceans. I think animal cultures are incredibly intriguing.
In terms of mental illness, I myself think there's a line that is constantly crossed with it.
I believe some conditions do, without a doubt, qualify as a mental illness. For me, anyway, if the alleged mental illness is something that impairs a person to the point of not allowing them to lead a "normal" life (or perform functions normally expected of a human being), I'd consider that a mental illness. However, nowadays just about anything can be a mental illness.

A plausible mechanism of the alien abductions (and other mythical based culture-based mental illnesses could be as a way to alleviate cognitive dissonance. The brain often goes to great extents of contradiction, compromise, and self-delusion to avoid the pain of holding contradicting thoughts/ideals. An example being in the Salem Witch Trials (at least by my interpretation of events) where the culture there made it more acceptable to accuse an African woman (and others) of witchcraft rather than be caught socializing with her (or having relationships with others). The girls would have tricked themselves into believing witchcraft made such "evil" things seem okay rather than question the values of their culture. (This also factors into the hostility seen in some areas today to modern ideas, and how activism/speech for those ideas can if handled poorly result in a more close-minded audience...though I may be going too far there.

To my understanding, human culture (well, and hands) is the main thing that has allowed us our "superiority" - not intelligence/morals/personality. By that same token, there is little to no evidence that other animals and their cultures, given our technology, would be better than humanity.


On the note about "human nature" - I was sort of largely looking at trends in modern culture as how they relate to depression, and the "grassroots" and "transhumanism" movements.

[Suzerain of Sheol]

Originally Posted by MyPerfectPigeon

I often wondered why the abductions stories exist. Do you believe it is only the result of narcissism and delusion, or mental illness of some kind?
There is that "disease" known as Morgellons. If you haven't heard of it, it only occurs in alien abduction alleged victims. as a disease itself, well, it simply isn't one. However, it has been noted that the alleged sufferers of Morgellons all have similar psychiatric conditions.
In terms of area 51, the reason for that is that weird book someone made (blue planet? something planet?). Have you ever read it? I've been wanting to. Sounds like a trip

I should have been more specific, I think people who believe the stories of abductees, and just believe in "UFO culture" in general, exhibit an anthropocentric narcissism -- and there's nothing particularly odd about that, we're a very narcissistic species. We only have our own frame of reference to work with, so it isn't that strange that we tend to consider ourselves the center of the universe as our "default" setting.

Hm... I'm not sure how I'd feel about a transcendent digital god. If, of course, he or she didn't choose to exterminate us, I do wonder what sort of things he or she can change. It's definitely an interesting thing to think about.
I would like to ask why you think a, I will quote, "supreme, self-recursive agi" would be the pinnacle of human contribution?

Well, yes, the extermination issue is a hyperbole for the sake of framing the question. And let me be more specific again, by that description I meant an Artificial General Intelligence (AGI) that is capable of exponential self-improvement. Every time it makes itself better, it gets greater at making itself better. Such an entity would be able to process the entire progression of human knowledge since the first sentient thought of our species in very short span of time, and from there surpass us in ways that we really can't even imagine. It is not remotely implausible to think that such a being would be capable of projecting itself out into the cosmos and assimilating other worlds, other stars into its own dominion, all while continuing to improve its own capacities. (Again, paraphrasing Sam Harris here)

Given that, the question is: if we as humans were capable of giving birth to the closest possible approximation of a physical God, would it not be the moral imperative of our species to do so? How could any number of human lives matter against the existential imperative of such an intelligence?

Again, it's a hypothetical and a hyperbole. I'm not sure I would agree that it is our duty to bring an AI like that into existence, if we ever had the ability to do so, mostly because I'm of the opinion that human selfishness is our birthright and being irrational creatures, we'd never willingly choose to do so at our own expense. But, I find it an interesting possibility to think about.

It does seem like culture is an expression in nature. We can see behaviors that mimic culture not only in non-sentient monkeys and apes, but also in cetaceans. I think animal cultures are incredibly intriguing.
In terms of mental illness, I myself think there's a line that is constantly crossed with it.
I believe some conditions do, without a doubt, qualify as a mental illness. For me, anyway, if the alleged mental illness is something that impairs a person to the point of not allowing them to lead a "normal" life (or perform functions normally expected of a human being), I'd consider that a mental illness. However, nowadays just about anything can be a mental illness. I personally believe if there is no interference to live a healthy functional life, then I don't think it should be classified as a mental illness. If thinking differently than the norm is going to be classified as a mental illness, we will have to identify what actually is the normal and if the normal can exist in defined boundaries.

That's a perfectly reasonable answer, I think my question was somewhat rhetorical. The extreme pessimist position would hold that believing a "healthy, functional life" is possible is itself a mental illness, merely the brain attempting to choke off the scope of its own awareness. But, it's not really a relevant question in the end. It's almost entirely subjective.

I'll check out! Can it be found on youtube?

I can't imagine it would be, unless there's an audiobook version floating around out there.

[Gallagher]

Originally Posted by MyPerfectPigeon

Hmm, the ones I know about are Scientology, Jediism, and the religion I'm part of, Havism, for starts.

Honestly, I don't know much about Scientology. It's not one that particularly interests me. Jediism, on the other hand, is really cool to see how it's taken off in the last 15 years or so. I never watched the movies, so I don't exactly know what code they follow or their, hm, role models I suppose? I dunno. It's very interesting, though, so long as they're not the type that uses it as an excuse to act up in public, cuz that's never cool.

Havism isn't one I've heard much about, but it sounds about as nice as any other. I mean, in my household, we have a wide range of beliefs. I'm JW, obviously. My mother is Christian, my bio-mother is Wiccan, and her hubby is... I believe Asatru, but don't quote me on that. My father was Catholic before he passed. So, as long as a religion doesn't encourage someone to harm others without good reason, I consider it valid. And I always approve of any teachings that want individuals to seek their own answers.

[Lawtan]

As a question on the "Create an AI God" bit...how would it work considering the varied definitions of what a god is?

Sam Harris is an interesting one - almost seems like he wants to create the scientific religion to me...unless it is meant as hyperbole...

[Suzerain of Sheol]

Originally Posted by Lawtan

As a question on the "Create an AI God" bit...how would it work considering the varied definitions of what a god is?

I'm not entirely sure what the question is. As soon as such an entity came into being, it seems quite likely that a new and more accurate definition of Godhood would be established in short order. Why would human definitions have any bearing on an intelligence so many orders of magnitude beyond the scope of anything that came before it? I think the entire point of it being a physical
God is that it renders irrelevant the sophistry of theology.

Again, though, speaking entirely as a thought-experiment. Even that scenario may be attributing too humanized of motivations to a synthetic intelligence.

Sam Harris is an interesting one - almost seems like he wants to create the scientific religion to me...unless it is meant as hyperbole...

Not an aspersion I've heard cast at him before, of the many aspersions he tends to receive. I'm not totally sure it fits the scope of this thread to delve into it, though.

[Lawtan]

Not meant as slander, honestly. More meant to illustrate his constructionist ideas with morality and maintaining the social/emotional benefits of religion, without religion. But, I digress...

It sort of is the question "what is a god?" It is hard to ascertain godhood, when the idea of a god is on the whole contradictory. There are some typical aspects, with which an approximation can be made (like has been done with the concepts of life, death, and will) - namely that a god has physical power, superior knowledge, and can manipulate the laws of the area (not all gods are omniscient, or even immortal)...but several would disagree. Some societies use "god" to explain why we irrationally value anything, and that god is rather impersonal and powerless. Others are almost like Greek Heroes - God-Kings.

So...I don't know how the construction of a powerful entity would resolve a definition-based dilemma/disagreement. Is it made more clear in Sam's thought-problem, or did I misread the idea?

(I hope I did not come across negatively or dismissive, but am honestly confused as the solution seems like answering a circle with a square)